The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

Life, Dalty. Life is being lost.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by omicron »

I think my greatest issue with the movie is the lack of any explanation of what happened before the movie. The comics, books, and games fill out the story, but if you haven't read any of them, then you have no idea where the First Order came from, how powerful it is in regards to the Republic, who's really in charge of the Galaxy, why the Battle of Jakku was important, etc.

It didn't really take much away from the movie, but I felt there was so much that the viewer didn't know or was unaware of.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

omicron wrote:[Y]ou have no idea where the First Order came from, how powerful it is in regards to the Republic, who's really in charge of the Galaxy, why the Battle of Jakku was important, etc.
How much of that does A New Hope give its viewer?
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by omicron »

The Swollen Goiter of God wrote:
omicron wrote:[Y]ou have no idea where the First Order came from, how powerful it is in regards to the Republic, who's really in charge of the Galaxy, why the Battle of Jakku was important, etc.
How much of that does A New Hope give its viewer?
True, but in that case it was starting from scratch, so the back story didn't really matter. Here, we know of the Empire and the Rebellion and their battles. Too make matters worse, apparently the First Order isn't the official successor to the Empire, they still exist but are marginalized out on the Outer Rim. Also, the Resistance isn't the formal military of the Republic but some sort of quasi-arm of the government. I mean, why wouldn't the Republic actively want to fight the First Order? Especially since it's obvious they are aggressive against the galaxy. So many questions....
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

This one starts from its own kind of scratch. It occurs to me that a person with no familiarity with Star Wars could start with The Force Awakens and not be any more or less lost than someone familiar with the other movies. The person familiar with the others would get the nods and callbacks and might feel better equipped to guess where the narrative might be going, but I don't know how much more that would enrich the familiar person's experience. Clearly--for some, at least--the nods and callbacks were too much. It might actually feel fresher and more engaging to the Star Wars virgin.

Sounds like you already know a decent amount about the First Order and Resistance.There were already some chunks of exposition in this one. It wouldn't surprise me to get some more chunks in Episode VIII. I assume you'll get little expository bits trickling in over the course of the next two movies. I doubt it'll be relegated to the crawls.

They're probably a little scared, thanks to the prequels, to give much more than is absolutely necessary to the plot. (I think Dalty made this point on the previous page, but I'm too Ipsed to look.) I don't know how much more you want beyond what you've mentioned above, but I'm guessing you'll get the broad strokes. I doubt they'll leave you hanging on your particular points.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

I figured I'd add this thing I said (with some slight edits) in a Facebook chat with Felt Pelt:

I initially thought the Luke shot lingered too long, but I have since changed my mind. It emphasizes his reluctance in a way that is almost infuriatingly showy. For whatever reason, I've come to admire the nerve of it.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

Here's yet another thing I've stolen from my side of a chat exchange:

I feel bad for The Force Awakens on some level. (OK. Not really. It appears, on the whole, to be a critical and popular darling.) A corner of the Internet is coming down on it for not being so intensely amazing that it gives the viewer no choice but to love it with a full heart. I can sympathize. It's probably easier--both emotionally and intellectually--to love or hate a Star Wars movie than it is to be generally pleased with it or to acknowledge that it's fairly well put together.

On some level, the prequels have this over the new one. Man, is it fulfilling to slap the shit out of them. There's a lot of shit to slap out. For better or worse, the intensity of feeling is there.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

I have this hope that Snoke will reveal himself to be quite tiny in the flesh. I'd like to think that's why the projection was so huge. You know, the ol' Wizard of Oz/man-behind-the-curtain trick.

Could he be related to Maz? Probably not, but the thought crossed my mind.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Dalty »

Snoke is the Emperor, gnarled and twisted even more by his journey into the reactor core.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Space Tycoon »

The Swollen Goiter of God wrote: I initially thought the Luke shot lingered too long, but I have since changed my mind. It emphasizes his reluctance in a way that is almost infuriatingly showy. For whatever reason, I've come to admire the nerve of it.
Recall that he began his hero's journey with tremendous reluctance.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Space Tycoon »

Dalty wrote:Snoke is the Emperor, gnarled and twisted even more by his journey into the reactor core.
Or Darth Plagueis....?
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by neglet »

Saw it today, mostly liked it. I really liked the new main characters, they had great chemistry and were appealing in different ways. I liked how they brought in Han Solo and Chewie (although it was pretty obvious Han was most likely to buy it), and found it believable where all the old characters ended up.

Didn't much care for yet another giant weapon with that one easily exploited flaw ... Again? Really? And I wasn't really convinced by Kylo Ren's character--not enough backstory to make it make sense.

On the whole, though, it was enjoyable, and no lens flares!!!!
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Space Tycoon »

The Starkiller should have been crippled, then reconstituted somehow by the third movie. Not destroyed outright.

It is an actual planet, after all, with a functioning, Earth-like biosphere. Seems kinda Sith-like to just exterminate it.

My thoughts only.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Space Tycoon »

"Star Wars Episode IX: Resurrection of the Starkiller."

Boo-Yah!
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

Space Tycoon wrote:The Starkiller should have been crippled, then reconstituted somehow by the third movie. Not destroyed outright.
I had this exact thought.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Space Tycoon »

Would have been less predictable. And would have raised the stakes a bit. You know, "How do we actually destroy this thing?!! And should we?"

Though I guess that second question is more of a Trek thing.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

I suppose they'd have to discharge their solar load somewhere. Probably wouldn't have been a very stable planet with the power of a sun percolating in it.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Space Tycoon »

Science ain't exactly an exact science in the Star Wars universe. I'm sure some explanation would be handwaved, then accepted.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

You mean like what more or less happened with them blowing it up?
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Drakemd »

Saw it last night, overall I enjoyed it. Omicron, I am one of those that you talked about that didn't keep up with the books, comics, etc to know the story arc from ROTJ to TFA. I didn't think it took away from the story that I wasn't "in the know" about how we got to The First Order from the Empire. It would be nice to know that and I may go read up on it now, but I enjoyed the movie without knowing that ahead of time. The more I think and read after seeing it, I am coming up with more things that I would have liked to have been different or better explained.

1. Someone mentioned this on FB in a post with Dalty (sorry, I don't know everyone's true identity), but the randomness of Han and Chewie finding the Millenium Falcon. They mention later that they were tracking it, but I think 30 seconds of how they tracked it once it left the planet would have made it a little more believable that they happened upon Rey and Finn right when they needed help.
2. The more I think about the map to Luke, the more it bothers me. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. First, why is there a map to him and who created it? I apologize if I missed this explanation, but it seems odd that a Jedi that wants to disappear would have a map that shows exactly how to find him. Also, if you have a map, why have the entire map except for one small piece (granted it is the piece that has the final destination) in your droid? R2D2 had the entire map and it was in a hallway of the Resistance the entire time. They didn't even seem to know it was there, except C3PO knew it. I think I would have preferred if the story arch was about Han and Leia trying to get their son back, Han dies and this brings Luke out of hiding. The story about a map to Luke just doesn't sit right with me for some reason.
3. I agree with all of you that the Star Killer should not have been destroyed. I see this as another nod back to ANH when the original Death Star was destroyed. It doesn't bother me as much as some other things, but if that was where the bulk of The First Order was living, who is left after the entire planet was destroyed? It is going to be a hard sell for Episode VIII to get us to believe that TFO has survived their entire planet being destroyed.

I am sure that I will think of more things as I process the movie. I still think it is better than any of the prequels, but that wasn't really hard to do.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

I think they were sort of stuck when it came to the Han/Chewie intro. It would have felt less abrupt and awkward if they had shown a handful of scenes earlier on with them trying to track down the Falcon, but it's clear Abrams and Kasdan wanted to preserve the reveal and have "Chewie, we're home!" be the first line Han spoke. They went for an emotional, second-act entrance over a more natural first-act one. It works for some. It doesn't work for others. I guess I'm fine with it, though some part of me feels that, since most people already got that big reveal in the second trailer, the moment was less in need of preserving. Maybe future viewers--the ones who see the movie without having first seen any of the trailers--will like it more the way it is. I'm not sure.

They do explain that the map isn't exactly a map to Luke. It's a map to the first Jedi temple. I'm pretty sure all they have to go on is that this was the last place he told them he was going. It's a bit of a galactic crapshoot. For all they know, he's moved on.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Drakemd »

Thanks Goiter, I remember the line about the Jedi Temple now. There were some distractions during the movie and that part may have been one of them where I heard the line, but it didn't fully register. I still think that it is odd that the entire map is in R2D2 except for that small piece. Seems to me that the Jedi would have protected the site of the temple a little more by breaking up the map across the galaxy. They could have accounted for this by simply stating that they had found all of the pieces of the map except for the last one.

As far as Han/Chewie, I wasn't looking for a handful of scenes to explain how they found them. They have a line later where Han says that they were tracking the Falcon (I think it is when Rey explains how she acquired the Falcon). I just think they could have added another line where Han says they were finally able to track it down once she flew it off of Jakka. They could have even given him another joke where he comments on her piloting skills. It doesn't bother me that much, just something that I would have liked to have seen one more line of dialogue.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by Space Tycoon »

The more I think about it, the more I like the way Luke was handled. His presence looms over the entire film, even though we only end up seeing him for a few minutes at the very end. He is in everyone's thoughts, spoken about constantly, and that only serves to raise our anticipation even more.

Pretty certain he'll be the Yoda of episode VIII, with a bit of Kenobi thrown in for good measure.

Speaking of which...Ewan MacGregor as force ghost Kenobi next time around? Yes? Apparently he does brief voice work during Rey's vision sequence.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by omicron »

You know, I think the thing that is most making me want to see the movie again is to watch Rey's Force vision again. It flew by so quickly and I imagine it's very important.
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Re: The Force Awakens: Spoiler Thread

Post by The Swollen Goiter of God »

Saw it a second time today. Some more from Facebook chats:

It held up. Elements of the score that didn't stand out for me the first time really stood out for me a second time. Rey's theme and the closing theme were standouts. There's still nothing new that's bombastic or stands out for me in the way that, say, "The Asteroid Field" or "Yoda's Theme" stands out, but I was still drawn in in a way that I hadn't been drawn in during my first viewing. Some of the new stuff has nuance and does a good job conveying mood.

Another thing that stood out and was particularly painful for me a second time: seeing Chewbacca in the pilot's seat when he flies in to pick up Rey and Finn. It's tough being reminded that Han's no longer going to occupy that space.

Something that occurred to me this time that didn't occur to me on first viewing: Kylo Ren is directly responsible for waking up Force capabilities in Rey, and on two separate occasions. (He didn't mean to, clearly. The Force as a whole was awakened in her when she touched Luke's saber [though maybe a case could be made for her having primed the awakening with the fancy flyin'], but some abilities were awoken specifically by Ren. The first one was awoken when Ren tried to plumb the depths of her mind and she wound up plumbing his, and the second was awoken when he mentioned the Force by name and she gave herself over to it.)

Another thing that occurs to me: the Starkiller isn't destroyed, exactly. It effectively becomes a new sun. Kinda cool. I'm sure it'll screw seasons and orbits all to hell, but maybe the system will continue to support life. (This is assuming the system was already supporting life. If it wasn't, maybe the change will generate life.)

I was better able to give myself over to the movie the second time around. For better or worse, the "rhyming" is etched in stone for me. I've accepted it as a part of Star Wars.

I like the new kids. They're scared and put-upon and nowhere near sure of their place in things. It helps make things feel immediate and dangerous.

I remember someone on the Corona/CA Revisited Facebook page complaining about how the movie perpetuates the myth of the efficacy of torture. I don't think it does. Instead, I feel it shows that conventional torture methods are iffy. They were unable to extract the desired info from Poe, after all. I suppose a case could be made for the cutting suggesting that Ren continued torturing Poe, but I thought it was pretty obvious that this is not what happened. What happened, as far as I can tell, is that Ren Force-read Poe's mind. I see this as a measure taken in response to the inability to achieve the desired through conventional torture.

I think the person also said this ran counter to the use of torture in the OT, where Vader tortured Han more or less for the hell of it. ("He didn't even ask me any questions.") I've always liked that Han felt that it was for the hell of it, but I've also always thought it was made clear that Vader was doing this to draw Luke in. ("Friends you have there." "They were in pain." "It is the future you see.") It's more evidence of Han--and, by extension, most of the rest of the galaxy--not really understanding how the Force works. I've always liked the thought that Vader had a practical reason for torturing Han and that Han just didn't realize it. (I hope this doesn't make me seem sadistic. I don't mean to say that I like that Han was tortured.)
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