The Middle-East / Radical Islam

[Dalty]

It has a parliament in the form of the legislative council. It has elections. It has exports, it has an agriculture industry, it has a national bank. Nobody is saying it's close to where it needs to be and god knows I am not excusing Israel, but to call it an internment camp is a stretch.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

Israelis love camping.

[Dalty]

And Hamas love fireworks. If only they could work it out it would be one hell of a camping trip.

[Space Tycoon]

As far as negotiations are concerned, the USA is the only country that can compel Israel to make serious concessions, and have repeatedly failed to do so, due largely to the power of the Israel Lobby. If Obama wanted to put the screws on Netanyahu to make deep concessions, he could. But it would be politically disastrous in a Congressional election year, and Bibi knows it. Which is a fairly perverse relationship to have, because the US owes nothing to the State of Israel. However, Israel owes it's very existence to consistent US support-- financially, politically and militarily. As well as to the support of some Western European countries.

Btw, the term "Israel Lobby" should not be conflated to mean "The Jews," as an aggregate. Many of today's most ardent Zionists are Christian in background. Something unusual has happened in American politics since the revival of Protestant fundamentalism. Those same WASPy Republican types who in an earlier age would have not let the Jews join the country club are now some of the most vigorous, and unreasonable supporters of Israel's hard right, as we see every four years during election time.

And perhaps not surpringly, some of the sharpest critics of Israel's heavy-handed policies are themselves proudly Jewish, from Noam Chomsky to, most recently, Jon Stewart.

[Corporal_Hicks]

*bump

[Dalty]

Yes, there is a certainly a lot to discuss.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

Hicks was just mashing a zit.

[Mal Shot First]

Just for a minute let's all do the bump.

[Dalty]

If only. We have helped Pandora's box to open here, on both sides of the left/right traditional political divide, and we don't seem to have a fucking clue what to do next. Meanwhile there are some horrific atrocities being committed.

[Space Tycoon]

I'm not sure what you're referring to as far as the "left-right political divide." I'm usually pretty slow to begin with, and then there's all the paint fumes I inhale daily.

Are you saying the (Western) left and right are both to blame for what is happening over there? Because it seems to me that US foreign policy has mostly been driven by various right wing, pro-interventionist elements, regardless of who sits in the Oval Office.

[Space Tycoon]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 87294.html

[Dalty]

Tony Blair was a left-wing PM. The 'Arab Spring' was cheerfully welcomed by the left of the political divide. Like I said, both sides.

The Iraq debacle clearly has the Right's fingerprints all over it. The Libya mess was done by a Con PM and a French PM who is as Socialist as they come.

What do you do? Not intervene and they are carrying out genocide, intervene and make it worse? Not intervene and it becomes a terrorist haven, radicalising and training jihadis to attack us. Intervene and be seen to be attacking the Muslim world again.

It's lose/lose and will remain so.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

May as well knock the dust off this one;

[Space Tycoon]

I guess when you include European leaders you have a point, screw-ups all around. Though I'm not sure how truly left-wing Blair really was, or is, at the end of the day. My old leftist friends mostly considered him a corporate sell-out beneath a progressive facade.

I think beyond the stark choices of either a) The Crusades 2.0, versus b) isolationism, lies the middle-of-the-road strategy of c) engaging moderates and pragmatists among the Islamist groups who could form stable-ish governments with some popular support. The US failed to do this after the withdrawal of the Soviet Army from Afghanistan, and the result was the rise of Taliban. Something similar is happening in Iraq.

[Space Tycoon]

Fuckin' Canada, man.

I guess Harper is finally getting at least some of the Iraq adventure he wanted 10 years ago.

[Dalty]

Or maybe he feels that genocide has to be stopped?

[Space Tycoon]

It should be stopped by the players in the region.

[Space Tycoon]

Or, you know, we could send thousands of more Western troops to their deaths --not to mention thousands more to disfiguring fates as bad as or worse than death; not mention another TRILLION dollars spent(that we don't have)- in pursuit of some elusive millenial goal of converting the Middle East to our way of life.

Hey, whatever seems practical.

[Dalty]

I don't think that the aim is to convert anyone's way of life to a Western model this time. And regional players are both involved and requested help.

[Space Tycoon]

Their rulers have requested help, but I'm sure the ordinary people would just as soon have us stay out.

[Dalty]

And instead have their daughters raped and sons beheaded by IS thugs funded on black market oil and armed with the ex-Iraqi army's equipment?

[Space Tycoon]

There's no shortage of barbarism in the Middle east, much of it is committed by our allies. In fact IS owes much of it's existence to our good friends the Saudis.

To significantly stop IS will require a massive commitment of soldiers on the ground and billions of dollars over many years. That is a fact.

[Dalty]

I fear you are correct. However even a policy of containment will require the same. And they must be contained, and none of the regional powers have the ability to do it alone.

[Space Tycoon]

The fear I have, like a lot of people, is mission creep--today it's a relatively minor commitment of advisors, air strikes and spec forces, within a few years a less restrained administration might decide to take it much further. It's happened before.

[Dalty]

Hmmmmmm, yes. A little thought of jungle nation somewhere in SE Asia....

The rape and the torture and the beheadings and the mass murder and the forced conversions and the territorial (and weapons and income) grabs cannot be turned a blind eye too though. And these guys have their sights on Southern Spain, Malta, North Africa, Turkey.......