Huffy Flounce

Because whilst this would probably be a massively inflammatory thread on another board, I like and respect all you guys and am interested in your discussions and debates.

So, it turns out that everybody was kind of right!

Afghanistan was never going to be made into a functioning democracy.
Iraq was a mistake.
Both approaches were naive.
Similarly, the Arab Spring that most applauded has now proved to be a nightmare.
Some of these 'awful' Dictators were actually the best bet to keep a lid on these lunatics.
We have been wrong and complicit in both directions.

Discuss.

I'll go ahead and warn you that I'm not going to have anything of value to contribute in this thread.

In other words, my contribution here is likely to be like my contributions elsewhere.

I guess the problem is "sure he's an asshole, but he keeps the bigger assholes in check"

I really have no thoughts on the situation other than that it is a big fucking mess and a good deal of that mess is of our own making.

I wish I had more coherent thoughts, but I don't feel like I'm informed enough to constructively chime in. I'm more informed about Russia/Ukraine than the Middle East

Exactly. There is a long history of the West making a mess of things there (involvement in Iraq, no involvement in Syria), and nothing seems likely to help in the future, at least not as long as the extremists hold sway. I think many people, myself included, have reached a level of fatigue in considering the problem.

The Arab Spring obviously had mixed results, at best. But something like it was going to happen eventually.

A dictator is a dictator regardless, and no dictator is "good." When you know that your countrys corrupt, brutal ruler is funded, armed and backed by a foreign superpower, you're going to be angry at said superpower. That anger will express itself in many ways, ranging from peaceful protest to actions that the West names "terrorism." Groups like Boko Haram, Islamic State of Iraq, and yes, even the Taliban should really be seen as popular uprisings against deeply corrupt regimes. Their methods are psychotic, of course, but it is a reaction to the equally violent, authoritarian tactics of the regimes we have been funding, and they have been fighting.

We have seen this many times before, the world over, regardless of religious or ethnic context. We could just as easily be having this conversation about South American leftists, India's Naxalites, Tamil separatists or Irish nationalists. I believe religion in and of itself is not necessarily the primary driving force in Middle Eastern conflict. That may sound heretical, but really, if you look at the Palestinian groups active in the 70's, they tended to have names such as Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, etc. These were groups driven by Marxist or Maoist ideology, not Islam. They were more likely to have a framed picture of Lenin adorning the office wall, than they were to bow to Mecca five times a day. Forty years on, and ideologies have changed, but the problems remain. It is a fact of human nature that most people would rather be misruled by their own than occupied, however "well-intentioned" (as if our intentions were ever all that beneficent), by a foreign power.

And I'm not sure how much of a "mistake" the Iraq War really was. The Bush Administration was deeply mistaken, obviously. However, I believe that the neoconservative inner cabal advising the Bushies on foreign policy knew exactly what they were doing. Destabilize Iraq, possibly forever; have that spill over into Syria; increase the level of terrorism and general chaos in the region; all for the benefit of Israel's foreign policy and USA's military-industrial complex(or do I repeat myself), where business has been a-booming over the past decade.

Seems to me that at least one positive outcome could result from this. If Iran and the US worked together at some level to deal with ISIS, it could lead to a thawing of relations between the two countries and progress on Syria and the nuclear issue.

Maybe, anyway.

This was hard to watch.

Why does anyone still listen to these bloody fools anymore.

Because ISIS is selling t-shirts too?

Good lookin' broad. Swell gams.

See Syria helped by bombing Iraq today.

Bombing Iraq? Only Whitey gets to do that.

Legend has it that when Saddam was expelled from Kuwait and was on the ropes Colin Powell, Stormin' Norman and Peter De La Billier all had to council Major and Bush Sr that Saddam must be left in power (but contained) at all costs.

But wait - then Bush Jr decided to break that tripwire supported by War Criminal Blair. But others complained and said this was a mistake.

However the same people who said it was a mistake also supported the Arab spring which did the same job in other places.

And the people who attacked us said they did it because we supported these dictators. But here we were supporting the toppling of these dictators but we have unleashed and empowered people to attack us more.

Cake - eat it!

I'm not sure it's accurate to compare the Arab uprisings, which began as more or less spontaneous, grassroots level "people power" movements; with a deliberate act of military aggression against a sovereign country, regime change and subsequent occupation.

Also, I'm not convinced of the extent to which the Obama Administration welcomed these uprisings, particularly in Egypt. Clinton's initial response was to stand by the autocrat Hosni Mubarak, describing him as a "role model for the region," or words to that effect. The same administration continues to support the new junta in Cairo, who are currently busying themselves with mass executions of MB leaders and members.

America's policies in the Middle East are seen as deeply hypocritical and contradictory: backing rulers or rebels when it appears to serve some short-term perceived strategic or economic interest; then reversing course when it doesn't. All the while justifying these policies with the usual blather about democracy and human rights.

I know you'll say every country does this, but in the case of the Middle East, it is far more glaring.

Space Tycoon wrote:I'm not sure it's accurate to compare the Arab uprisings, which began as more or less spontaneous, grassroots level "people power" movements; with a deliberate act of military aggression against a sovereign country, regime change and subsequent occupation.

The method may have seemed desirable. But the outcome is the same.

I see they have declared a Caphilate. Good.

Caliphate, even.

I wonder if Wiz Khalifa has any thoughts on the matter?

Queen Latifa is horrified.

I find this morbidly amusing, as do many others. You eventually become that which you hate.

When in doubt, watch TVO.

It's a few weeks old, but still relevant.

Space Tycoon wrote:

That's good stuff.

It's currently my desktop wallpaper. Yes, I still use a PC.

I do, too.