Independence for Scotland?

[Space Tycoon]

I had a pretty massive hangover myself a week ago Sunday. I was incapacitated until late afternoon of that day. Thank God for good bread, olive oil, cheese, and mushroom soup. And, uh, more booze eventually. Don't ask.


So... I guess it's safe to say you personally oppose Scottish independence. Fair enough. It's your country, your region, and who am I to lecture you anyway.

Then again, who are we to stand against a distinct culture's legitimate right to pursue self-determination. Clearly, a large portion of Scotland would like independence of one form or another. Be it politically motivated or otherwise.

Now personally, I do not actually favour such a move. But I support the right of people to vote for or against these things. I guess you could say I am pro-choice on the matter.

Our experience here in Canuckistan has shown that when a rebellious province seeks separation or sovereignty (or whatever the Quebecois want now), the best thing to do is let them chase it-- and then let their leaders either succeed or embarrass themselves with their own words and policies. The Parti Quebecois have had their shot again and again, and the results have not exactly worked in their favour. Our attitude--well, my attitude--is... "hey, you had your shot, and you failed." T.S.

But let's look at the larger picture. True enough, France and Britain are no longer enemies; nor are Germany, Belgium, Holland, Italy and the rest. History may be no barrier to friendship (as our many disagreements can attest), but are we to believe that the EU represents the future of Europe? I used to hope so, but I am no longer so certain. There are many Euro-skeptics who oppose the full-on unification of European countries. Are we to dismiss them as narrow-minded chauvinists? OR... can we accept the possibility that large parts of the Western world are simply not willing to abandon their local identity in favour of some homogenous (albeit well-intentioned) political grouping.

I can appreciate the fact that the Scots have historically been an integral part of Great Britain. I personally have great respect for the Scots, I find them to be a practical, hard working people who take lemons and make them into either lemonade, or some kind of lemon-powered bicycle. Scots were integral in the establishment of Canada, and how can that be in any way negative?

I also believe there comes a time when supranational identities, based on passion and idealism, must give way to hard-headed reality. People would rather be ruled by their own blood, however poorly... than by the most well-intentioned, enlightened hands of others.

[Dalty]

My head says they should stay. My heart says I wish they would fuck off!

There is an argument that this has come about because of a changing Scottish culture. The erosion of the Presbyterian approach, it's moral code and with it the very strong work ethic has, in it's stead, led to a dependency culture that has overtaken Scotland since the 1970s and the Labour Party's botched solution that won it the election.

Years and years of this has given a widespread sense of "entitlement" to benefits and subsidies throughout Scotland. In overmanning / indolence in public sector employment, in a producer-focused health service, in subsidy junkies, in a pervasive feeling of the population having rights but not responsibilities. There are lots of Scots who don't feel this way, yet Salmond has cunningly found a way to deny a majority of them a right to vote.

And those that are left are people are gullible enough to fall for Salmond's lies that this is all the fault of the bastard English. He tells flat out lies yet couches them in nationalism that is, at times, frankly racist. His latest is putting the spectre of Tory led Westminster privatising the Scottish NHS before these dependent users of the service. Despite the fact that a simple understanding of the NHS in Scotland proves this to be technically and legally impossible.

He also sells a Socialist utopia to these people but cannot and will not lay out a coherent vision for the funding of this. He is basically a charlatan.

The reason the Labour Party are fucking terrified is that they rely on the 41 Scottish Labour MPs to give them a chance of a majority in the house.

RBS have practically signalled their plan to relocate their entire operation to England if the Scots vote 'Yes' as have Standard Chartered.

We will have to take back our Trident force and the 8-9,000 skilled jobs that support it.

Interestingly Scottish contacts of mine who work for IBM and Gartner based in the US, and their contacts/partners/friends working for the IMF and the World Bank have all been told their contracts will be terminated immediately should Scotland vote 'Yes'. Same for Scots working for the EU in Brussels and Strasbourg. However they are not allowed to vote!!

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

If Scotland skedaddles, will they have to rename Scotland Yard?

[Dalty]

It's already New Scotland Yard.

You know, I just realised I have no idea why it was called Scotland Yard!

[Mal Shot First]

I was curious about that, too, and had to look it up. According to Wikipedia, the original Metropolitan Police headquarters was located on a street called Great Scotland Yard. The name of the street became synonymous with police activity in London.

[Dalty]

It's fallen out of favour a little lately. As in, they always used to say in the Press "Scotland Yard released a statement saying...." and "Scotland Yard supports..." etc. etc.

These days they seem to refer to it as "The Met Police" much more.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

Sounds like they're pulling a Freedom Fries on the Yard.

[Dalty]

And now history shows that the French were right.

[Space Tycoon]

Well, I would say that I feel the opposite way, my heart would like to see Scotland stay in Britain, largely for the sake of nostalgia. But my head tells me that clearly a lot of Scots want to start a new chapter in their history.

Perhaps it is better that process begin now, while things are relatively civil, rather than somewhere down the line if it gets ugly, even violent.

In any event, my head also tells me that this will probably result in a No vote for independence. I've looked into my crystal ball, and I just don't see it. We'll see if I'm right or not.

I'll drink a toast of fine single Scotch Malt Whiskey if they lose. Or win, for that matter.

I tend to drink a lot of whiskey these days.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

Ol' Goiter wouldn't mind a finger or two of some whiskydrink.

[Space Tycoon]

Whiskeydrink is good, provided it doesn't lead to whiskeydink.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

It gets knocked down, but it gets up again.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh, give it more credit than that, it's not some one-hit wonder.

[Mal Shot First]

But my head tells me that clearly a lot of Scots want to start a new chapter in their history.

I haven't followed the situation at all, but the way that Dalty describes it, it sounds like Scottish political leaders are feeding nationalist propaganda to a subset of their population. Of course, this might just be English propaganda regurgitated by Ol' Daltykins. This doesn't mean that it couldn't be true.

Anyway, knowing that there are a lot of Scots who say they want to start a new chapter in their history doesn't tell you why they say this. Are they actually yearning for independence or do they think they are because they're repeating what they've been spoonfed by the media? (Do they really love desk or are they just looking at things in the office and saying they love them?)

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

Oh, give it more credit than that, it's not some one-hit wonder.

I was talking about my ding-dong.

[Space Tycoon]

Knowing that there are a lot of Scots who say they want to start a new chapter in their history doesn't tell you why they say this. Are they actually yearning for independence or do they think they are because they're repeating what they've been spoonfed by the media?

I believe that beyond the media's propagandization... there are simply many Scottish people who desire independence. Have been for many years.

Indeed, even one of Dalton's heroes, Sean Connery, has been and continues to be, a supporter of Scotish independence.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

I know why the caged bird sings.

[Dalty]

Multi-millionaire tax exile who doesn't even live there, Sean Connery? He doesn't get to vote.

As I said, the Scots who would vote more than 85% to stay aren't even allowed to vote. Salmond is very much feeding them Nationalist Propaganda. He is also flat out lying.

"We will have a currency union and keep the pound!" Erm..... no you won't, you have been told this. You will have as much influence over the pound as Puerto Rico has over the US dollar. But he keeps saying it.

"We will be members of the EU!" No again Jock! They have flat out told you that you will have to reapply and renegotiate to join and you will probably not be able to meet the financial requirements for quite a few years, and the Belgians and the Spanish would be likely to block your entry because they don't want to encourage their own separatist elements. But he kept saying it over and over until the EU president slapped him down publicly.

There is no need for English propaganda. Secretly there are quite a few people South of the border who want them to go.

Amusingly, at the England football match on Monday night the English fans were singing:

We hope you vote Yes
We hope you vote Yes
Fuck off Scotland
We hope you vote Yes

[Space Tycoon]

Well, that doesn't sound very nice to me.

[Dalty]

I think there is referendum fatigue setting in South of the border.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/david- ... lf-i,36941

[Dalty]

Well, tomorrow is the day. The future of our entire Nation will be decided by a bunch of Sweaties, hopped up on Irn-Bru and Government subsidised skag, whipped into a frenzy by re-runs of Braveheart.

[Adam54]

I've been hearing it looks like a (very) narrow no at this point. Does that match consensus there, Dalty, or does no one really know what the fuck is gonna happen?

[Dalty]

Too close to call according to all the polls. Primarily because Salmond has Gerrymandered the polls and our idiotic political 'masters' let him.

[Dalty]

If I was in charge of the rest of the UK then I would hope they voted yes. As I am not, then I am undecided. I guess we will see when I wake up in 6.5 hours time. Night!!!