Bats v Supes

[Space Tycoon]

Looks like they're going for "full body bleached white because he maybe fell into some chemicals," as opposed to "face painted white, because he's an evil clown."

[Space Tycoon]

I actually kinda respect what they did there, and I see why they did it. I would have preferred a nastier, more youthful version of Jack Nicholson's masterful take on the character. Something along the lines of Alex Ross's illustrations.

[Dalty]

Isn't the plan, in Suicide Squad, that the Joker already exists and has been in Arkham for a while?

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

It's my understanding that he's supposed to be an established presence.

[Master Skywalker]

Ugh. Thursty, do I HAVE to talk about Batman v Superman?

Yeah, I know I'll go see it, in spite of my reservations. I'm too much of a comics übergeek not to go.

Ok, so here are my thoughts:

The BvS teaser is bad. Oppressively oppressive, for the sake of being oppressive.

The new Joker, or whatever that... thing... in Suicide Squad is meant to be is atrocious. Just awful. He has "damaged" tattooed on his forehead, kids! That means he's a daaaaangerous guy! I'm sure his other despicable traits are etched somewhere else on his skin, just to make it blindingly clear to the idiot fans. That way, they won't have to actually WRITE any sort of characterization. It's all advertised for them!

Awful.

[Dalty]

"You know what would be awesome and be a totally awesome shout out to comic geeks that would just show how totally awesomely we get this character? If we had tattooed on him the laughs from that famous panel in The Killing Joke. The fanboys will love us because we are showing totally awesome respect to his totally awesome comic heritage."

"Erm...... why would he have tattoos on him from his own comic book?"

"Who cares, it's a totally awesome connection to a totally awesome comic. Between that and The Dark Knight Returns we are giving the fan boys what they want!"

"How do you know that is what they want? Why don't we just make The Killing Joke or The Dark Knight Returns then?"

"Because this is awesomerrer! Do you even like comic books? I read one last night and it was totally awesome! I think it was called Watchman or something. About a guy who had a watch for a power. I think that was what it was about. I kinda got distracted by a big blue dude and some shit about pirates."

[Jubbers]

That was incredibly Goiter-like.

[Dalty]

Shit.

[Master Skywalker]

"You know what would be awesome and be a totally awesome shout out to comic geeks that would just show how totally awesomely we get this character? If we had tattooed on him the laughs from that famous panel in The Killing Joke. The fanboys will love us because we are showing totally awesome respect to his totally awesome comic heritage."

"Erm...... why would he have tattoos on him from his own comic book?"

"Who cares, it's a totally awesome connection to a totally awesome comic. Between that and The Dark Knight Returns we are giving the fan boys what they want!"

"How do you know that is what they want? Why don't we just make The Killing Joke or The Dark Knight Returns then?"

"Because this is awesomerrer! Do you even like comic books? I read one last night and it was totally awesome! I think it was called Watchman or something. About a guy who had a watch for a power. I think that was what it was about. I kinda got distracted by a big blue dude and some shit about pirates."

I think that was what Snyder thought after he "read" (read: had his assistant read) Watchmen, too. Minus the pirates.

I did like Jackie Earle Haley as Rorschach, though.

[Mal Shot First]

That was incredibly Goiter-like.

I agree. Every once in a while, Dalty knocks it right out of the park.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

I'm going to take this to mean that Ol' Goiter routinely knocks it out of the park.

[Mal Shot First]

Natch.

[Dalty]

I am only learning, but when I grow up I want to be just like Ol' Beau Watkins.

[Dalty]

PS - I am going to say it............ I think Watchmen is a pretty darned good movie.

[Space Tycoon]

Word.

[Mal Shot First]

Here's the "Honest Trailer" with its half-assed attempt at humor.

[Master Skywalker]

PS - I am going to say it............ I think Watchmen is a pretty darned good movie.

It was a decent film. It was not a great Watchmen adaptation, however. But it tried, so I give Snyder some credit for that.

Maybe I need to watch it again, if I can force myself to go through with that again. There's a tedium involved with most of Snyder's films, 300 excluded. And Sucker Punch, surprisingly enough.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

I didn't care for it, but I've already gone into why I didn't care for it at length. I don't want to re-bore everybody with the specifics.

[Dalty]

Lack of squid, lack of pirates.

Other than that, I am not really sure what people wanted.

[Mal Shot First]

There's a tedium involved with most of Snyder's films, 300 excluded.

I still have to say that I liked 300. I'm not sure what it is, but something about Snyder's style fits that material. Maybe, since it was the first Snyder film I saw, I thought that the over-the-top-ness of it all was meant to be ironic (I'm less convinced of the irony now, but the first impression still sticks with me). The performance by Gerard Butler stands out more than any other performance in subsequent Snyder films - maybe with the exception of Jackie Earle Haley's Rorschach, although in that case it's more the way the character is written than how he is played that makes him memorable.

Basically, 300 was exactly the movie it needed to be and Snyder was exactly the right person for the job.

[Mal Shot First]

Lack of squid, lack of pirates.

Other than that, I am not really sure what people wanted.

Even though it seems like you're trolling, I'll humor you by saying that a complete and satisfying adaptation of a work like Watchmen would entail more than the simple inclusion of plot elements such as the squid or a nod to the pirate comic nested within the actual comic.

Yes, there is a basic plot to Watchmen that was captured for the most part in the movie, but the reason that the Watchmen comic was so influential was that it was self-reflexive in a way that comics hadn't been up to that point. It was groundbreaking in the way that it commented on comics as a medium, and the pirate comic was only one part of that. Another part, for example, were the newspaper articles that were part of each installment. And even if you try to incorporate all these parts into a film version, they won't necessarily make a cohesive whole, simply because certain things are possible in print media that feel awkward in other media.

Snyder's movie failed to capture any of the metanarratological elements of the comic (it could have, perhaps, commented on the superhero movie craze that had taken off recently, thus adapting the comic's narrative for the screen), and instead it focused on the main plot line, which essentially made it into just another superhero movie, albeit one with less idealized characters. Seen as such, it's arguably a decent movie, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think anybody will be praising it in 2029 as a masterpiece that contributed to a shift in the discourse on the medium. And that's why probably any film adaptation of Watchmen would have been doomed to failure, let alone Snyder's.

[The Swollen Goiter of God]

All right. I lied. I'm not above re-boring people with the specifics. I'll add to what Mal has said, even though I'm pretty sure Dalty's baiting me. (Why do I think he's baiting me? Because this is what he originally said about the movie: "I thought it rated from 'Meh' to 'Good' but not great. But then I have read the graphic novel 5 times but think the graphic novel is highly, HIGHLY over-rated. I have read it so many times because, listening to the way people rave about it, I always thought I was being stupid and missing something. I read it a 5th time to get it fresh in my head before seeing the movie." I grant that a person is free to change his mind about a movie, and Dalty's tastes are famously ever-in-flux. But still! Dude loves to bait me, and I know he knows I love to be baited.)

I had a section concerning the same metanarratological elements Mal mentioned, but I saw when I did a refresh that he'd done a good job covering it, so I cut mine. Here's what's left:

I wanted something that wasn't a soulless visual carbon copy with speed-ramped-and-over-choreographed fight scenes and something that was a little less focused on badass. I wanted a less-hammy, more-believably-peak-perfection Ozymandias who didn't telegraph his villainy almost immediately. I wanted a Nite Owl II who was an actual schlub and not just Patrick Wilson wearing glasses. I didn't want a hilariously dumb sex scene set to Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah," though I admit I didn't know I didn't want it until after I saw it. I would have liked a Silk Spectre II played by a halfway decent actor. Malin Akerman's pretty bland. I'm guessing she was a model before she was an actor. (This doesn't necessarily mean anything. There have been plenty of models-turned-actors who are good.) I wanted a Nixon who didn't look like some guy wearing a Nixon Halloween mask.

I really like the giant squid ending, but I didn't have to have it be a giant squid, specifically. One of the biggest problems with changing the ending so that it looks like the nuclear attacks are the result of Dr. Manhattan's blowing his top is that humanity's banding together as a result of this doesn't seem to me to be as obvious a reaction. The reason humanity bands together in the comic is because the threat is alien. It also helps that it was localized and that there was a single attack. Dr. Manhattan is an American, and the American government goes out of its way to associate itself with him. The Cold War-as-filtered-through-Watchmen is what it is, in large part, because the world outside of America fears retaliation from America/Manhattan. Is it believable that the world wouldn't instantly blame America for Dr. Manhattan's actions--despite the fact that they are led to believe he also took out part of America? I'm not sure. America would have a lot of spinning to do, and it would have to do it incredibly quickly. It would also probably have to adopt near-instantaneous transparency as far as governmental secrets are concerned.

Here's how I originally put it:

"Does Country A tend to strengthen its bond with Country B when a terrorist cell unrelated to Country B's government (but whose members hail, primarily, from Country B) bombs Country A, or is it more often the case that Country A becomes intensely distrustful of Country B?"

Snyder tries for subtlety on occasion, and I can applaud him for trying. He's just not capable of it. His moments of subtlety come off as someone trying to be subtle. He's like a very heavy man in high heels trying to sneak down a tiled corridor. Snyder's attempts at subtlety are like Nolan's attempts at humor.

I think you can cut the pirates without it doing too much damage to the major narrative. It's the kind of thing that would have worked better if the comics had been adapted into an HBO or Netflix miniseries. It doesn't really bother me that the comic-within-a-comic is not in the movie. It almost certainly works better on the page.

I didn't *hate* it. There's stuff I like. Kudos to Crudup (his voice is a little soft for me, but he still more or less works in the role), Haley, and Morgan. Kudos to Patrick Wilson for pulling off schlubby as well as someone as fit and attractive as he is could have. Kudos to Snyder for all those shots of blue cock. I was afraid they'd skimp. Semi-kudos on the opening. It was a decent way to handle setting up the world, even if it was a little showy.

I'm fine with some of the changes. I'm fine with the Comedian killing Kennedy, even if it is a little much. It's not something the movie really needs, but I didn't have a strong negative reaction to it or anything. There were dumb little out-of-place nods to other movies, though, like the recreated War Room from Dr. Strangelove. It was just a distraction for me. Moore and Gibbons kinda-sorta hint at it in one panel of the comic, but Snyder outright recreates the Kubrick's War Room, its lighting, and Kubrick's camera angles. He even desaturates the shot, which must have been particularly painful for him. I guess it's cute-ish, and I guess it hints at the kind of meta-ness of the comic, but it also just feels thrown in there. The scene borrows visual cues from Dr. Strangelove the same way the rest of the movie borrows visual cues from its source material. There's a flatness to it that reminds me of Gus Van Sant's Psycho remake.

The movie in general felt a little compressed, but I can't honestly say I know it would have felt that way to me if I weren't already familiar with the Moore/Gibbons original. It would have been tough for anyone to turn it into a two-to-three hour movie.

It's odd to me, in light of Snyder's exhaustive visual fidelity to the comics, that he still chooses to make some of the changes he makes. Some of them are unnecessary. Some of them, for me, cheapen things. That's what my memory tells me, anyway. It's been more than half a decade since I saw it. One change, in particular, stands out for me: having Silk Spectre II be the one who delivers the "Nothing ever changes" line. That's my single favorite moment from the original--or, rather, Ozymandias's response to hearing it is. He wanted some kind of pat on the back and assurance he did the right thing, and he wanted it from the only person he considers to be his superior. Instead, he gets what amounts as a condescending cosmic shrug. It's pretty funny, and Crudup probably would have given it a decent line reading. Instead, we have Silk Spectre II/Laurie saying it. I feel like she says it to the group, too, though I could be mistaken. Part of why the scene has so much impact in the comic is that it caps a final private discussion between a god and the cream of the mortals' crop.

I still haven't seen the Ultimate Cut. Maybe I'd like it more.

[Dalty]

I don't troll or bait. I have seen the movie two or three times more and read the comic a couple more times. Both are 'go to' items from the shelves in my study when I feel like revisiting something. The film, I feel, seems to get better with every viewing, probably viewed through a lens as it being an interesting piece vs. the ever increasing numbers of superhero movies out there now and it that regard it becomes increasingly, I dunno, almost subversive.

The comic itself still hits me as nowhere near as rate worthy as it is proclaimed. Maybe that is a naturally contrarian streak coming out in me.

[Mal Shot First]

I'm going to sound like a douchebag saying this, but any subversion the movie offers is too mainstream to be considered actual subversion. If the movie is meant to be subversive of other superhero movies by showing us superheroes who are just as flawed as everyone else and who aren't always living up to our moral code, then it fails due the sheer Snyder-ness of presenting all of them in the most badass way possible. It's hard to subvert when you're glorifying at the same time.

I would argue that the only subversion taking place is a function of the inclusion of the original plot from the comic, and the movie retains this sense of subversiveness despite itself.

[Jubbers]

I rather like Scott Kurtz's adaptation, Ombudsmen.

It starts here: http://www.pvponline.com/comic/2009/03/02/ombudsmen